G'day.
Here are some notes from my studies. Most should seem pretty obvious, but I'm paranoid about missing something, so there they are.
TULIP
-Man is sinful by nature, he does not seek after God, he loves the darkness and hates light – therefore he is unable to respond to the Gospel.
Romans 3:10-18
--baisically saying no one is seeking after God -- does not imply he cannot seek after God
Romans 8:7-8
--those who are in flesh, specifically 'sarx phronema,' or carnally minded(Strong's 4561 and 5427), do not please God because they cannot please God
--within the context of the 1-9 Paul also says that those people who have the Spirit of God are living in the Spirit, not the flesh
Psalm 14:1-3/53:1-3
--taken with verse four, not sure if this selection is talking literaly about no one, or no one but the people of Israel.
Skip Col, same results
2 Cor 4:4
--looks like Paul is saying the enemy has blinded the understanding (minds) of unbelievers to keep them from understanding the Gospel
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9 comments:
"Romans 3:10-18
--baisically saying no one is seeking after God -- does not imply he cannot seek after God"
3:10 says no one is righteous (meaning no one who follows the law). The standard for "seeking" God is obedience to his law. Therefore, if no one is righteous...no one CAN seek God. If someone can seek God, it would imply that they could be righteous - something I think you'll agree is impossible. Remember the ideas of righteous/seeking are not momentary but rather life-long. Futher, remember we were slaves to sin. How can a slave serve two masters? If we seek God, we serve him. Seeking isn't some petty act like looking God up in the yellow-pages and thinking about giving him a call. Seeking him is an all-out committment to him. We must be born again before we can seek him.
I know my comments may sound legalistic at times. The main idea: unbelievers "can" do moral acts. But the issue is the condition of the heart. Believers can seek God because of a renewed nature (born-again). This doesn't make them perfect, it just gives them a heart with proper motives behind otherwise merely moral actions.
Now we get into the term "Born again" - Steve, do you view being born-again the same or different than salvation? Reformed Theology teaches that they are different in the sense that one MUST be born-again before he can even search God out and then only after searching God out can attain salvation.
In Acts especially though being "born-again" is synonymous with salvation (or the turning of their hearts in repentance and their acceptance of the Gospel).
Also - I am having a hard time understanding where you gethe standard for "seeking" is equivolent to obedience of the law. Please explain that a little further, if you don't mind.
I am skeptical when people loosely use the term "born-again" because there is a fine line of different perspectives as to the relation between God and the sinner in the process, and it is quite hard to understand theological issues such as these.
One must look at Romans 3 in it's entirety as one theme plays out throughout the entire chapter. That is of God's faithfulness, not ours and that's what righteousness is based on (His character and covenant - not ours). So inreading portions of Scripture, continue on the see how the Lord ties it together and I can bet a lot of questions will be made clear.
I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, I just want to understand your stance and reasoning behind it. Or maybe I'm mis-interpretting what you're saying.
Steve,
Don't worry about sounding legalistic. I appreciate your inputs!
Don't worry about arguments Holly, theoretically, I'm supposed to teach this stuff for a living (Although, I'll probably just teach for fun and mooch off my much more successful and productive wife).
Reformed Theology doesn't teach that salvation and being "born-again" are different (at least, not anymore than non-reformed do). Broken down, salvation is more like a process: regeneration (or being born again), faith/repentance, justification. The emphasis is on logical order rather than chronological since it is generally agreed that these things all happen at one "time." Usually, when people talk about salvation, they mean all these things by the one term. Non-reformed/non-Calvinist theologies tend to switch regeneration and faith in logical order. But if you believe that people are totally depraved, then you know they will never believe without first being quickened or born-again by the Spirit. This probably raises a few more questions about faith, but in favor of brevity I'll move on.
Seeking God. There are many things that people define as seeking God. Religious things like going to church, emotional excitement or "passion," asking questions about Jesus, etc. The following verses should give you an idea of the Old Testament idea of seeking God -- obedience(Dt 4:29, 1Chr 28:7-9, 2Chr 14:4). In the NT it is no different. Psalm 14, which provided some of Paul's basis for Romans 3 is probably the clearest example. Notice how David speaks of the fool (v.1) as one who is corrupt and does evil deeds...there is no one who does good (i.e. obeys Gods law). The next verse basically provides the antithesis to the fool...the Lord looks for someone who seeks him (v.2). The answer is no (v.3) instead everyone is like the fool. The law is the standard of doing good...seeking God. Keep in mind my earlier comment, "a heart with proper motives" is behind every truly good deed. But regeneration/being born-again must occur before someone has a heart with proper motives - see the following scripture which describes what God does in order for us to be obedient(Ezekiel 11:19-20). Jesus said, "if you love me, you will keep my commandments." Surely, loving God is a good example of seeking him?
Aaahhh! No one ever explained it to me like that, and since much of my "recent" understanding of Reformed Theology was in the form of a Calvinist making multiple arguments and backtracking his words - I can see how I may be totally misunderstanding you.
I get what your saying - and I must say it was very well said. Bravo Steve! Spurs me on to study further!
for the record, Steve, you can mooch off me anytime, unless, of course, that concerns chocolate.
Holly, remember eveyone is feeling their way through this Christian thing. Your Calvinist friend may have a strong tradition (I think the best), but Reformed folk are still more than a few cards short of a full deck (just like all other traditions). Be patient and work with them; don't let their problems alienate you. You may be able to help them...and they you. The Reformed are often arrogant, emotionless, and have a feeling of superiority. You probably know your own weaknesses. Especially keep in mind that 99% of Christians have no idea what they're traditions actually teach...so their explanations/arguments will always be lacking something.
Holly, remember eveyone is feeling their way through this Christian thing. Your Calvinist friend may have a strong tradition (I think the best), but Reformed folk are still more than a few cards short of a full deck (just like all other traditions). Be patient and work with them; don't let their problems alienate you. You may be able to help them...and they you. The Reformed are often arrogant, emotionless, and have a feeling of superiority. You probably know your own weaknesses. Especially keep in mind that 99% of Christians have no idea what they're traditions actually teach...so their explanations/arguments will always be lacking something.
Great advice Steve, thanks!
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