G'day.
In a few minutes I'll be looking at Total Depravity. There is a point I have though that comes from a quick observation, and I haven't seen anything yet to discount it. Not that that won't happen, just hasn't yet.
If God determines (as in initiates) everything that happens, why do we sin? Wouldn't it have been better to keep the Garden?
To me, this isn't an issue of God's sovereignty. It's an issue of his character. He's God, of course he can technically do whatever he wants. Is he going to lie, though? No, that's against his nature. Is he going to cause someone to lie? No, according to Jesus, causing someone to sin is punishable as well.
I think this is the deciding factor for me. The only other things I question about Reformed Theology stem from this issue. On to the T.
Danny
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6 comments:
maybe more than a few minutes,
but I'll get there.
Good observation Danny. God's sovereignty (of the argument of election) and His foreknowledge are two completely different things; so when looking at "T" in T.U.L.I.P. and the rest of the arguments for Reformed Theology, keep in mind the character of God and how the results of one's thinking attribute to what it says about who God is and why He does things. I'm interested in following your study about the subject, it's always sharpening to debate such topics!
Danny,
The problem you're discussing isn't an issue isolated to Reformed Theology (that is, the origin of sin/evil). Whether you believe God is absolutely sovereign or if you believe he withholds sovereign control over human will, you still face the same problem. God was certainly able to create a world that never became corrupt...but he didn't. There are all kinds of speculations why he did it that way or why he couldn't do it another way but they are all speculation. You'll be hard pressed to find any Theologian who answers that question. If it is answered, it is mere human argument because God simply has not told us why evil exists. Bottom line, even if God intended us to have sovereignty over our will, he can't be utterly separated from creating us in such a way that we could/would sin. We just have to accept that there is wisdom in what he did. Every theological system that recognizes original sin must accept what God did (and not question it, lest they choose to question God like Job).
Total depravity is the most difficult thing to accept in RT, but you haven't yet addressed it. Original sin is a significant component, but so it is in other competing evangelical theologies. None of them can answer your question.
Great explaination Steve, and valid in that summary!
On another note - with the presence of evil/sin, the arguments of ethics and morality are also entwined. One must approach Scripture in the light that our finite minds will not be able to comprehend the thoughts and will of an infinite God. However, we can look at the evidence in Scripture and pray for wisdom in understanding what Truth says - God will not contradict His Word or His character!
Steve, could you re-phrase the sentence after "bottom line?" Not quite sure I understand you there. Thanks!
Danny
"Bottom line, even if God intended us to have sovereignty over our will, he can't be utterly separated from creating us in such a way that we could/would sin."
Sovereingty over our will: if God created us with a free will such that he does not interfere with our choices. (generally related only to faith and salvation)(usually considered in some sense opposite to Calvinism's idea of election).
Ultimately, if God created everything that exists he is somehow tied to the evil that arose in his creation. This is not to say that he is guilty of wrongdoing!! Even if we say that God simply allowed evil to occur but did not "cause" it, he is still in some sense responsible (since he had the ability to stop it or create in such a way that it did not occur)...like if you allow your car to go over the speed limit because you're going down a hill...you don't directly cause it but you are responsible. This analogy is not perfect, as with all analogies related to God (particularly concerning this issue). Hopefully this helps. I know this sounds crazy, even heretical to some, but the question is too complex to put to words, especially so few.
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